Where does the justification for The New Testament doers of the law in Romans 2:13 originate from?

Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law by living in sinless obedience to it, that's not a question of if he did, and there is nothing about him living in sinless obedience to it that means that it expired when he died on the cross, especially because all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). Moreover, if the Mosaic Law expired because Jesus expired on the cross, then that would mean that it also resurrected when he resurrected. Though the reality is that they took Jesus down from the cross because of the Sabbath, so the Sabbath did not expire because he kept the Sabbath perfectly and then expired.

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished. The fact that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more, not consider ourselves free to do what God has revealed through His law to be sin.

Christ walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law and 1 John 2:6 says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so if someone is not walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they should not consider verses that speak about those who are in Christ to be referring to them. Christ all spent his ministry spreading the Gospel message calling for repentance and obedience to the Mosaic Law so he taught his followers to obey it by word and by example, which means that it would be absurd to think that the Law of Christ is something other or contrary to what Christ taught. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul used parallel statement to equate not being outside the Law of God with being under the Law of Christ, and the Law of Moses is interchangeably referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23.

Jesus did not go around teaching a new set of laws after he resurrected, so it doesn't make any sense to me why people think that the resurrection means rejecting everything Jesus taught during his ministry and following a new and undefined set of laws that he didn't teach. Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God.

Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law ....

The law was given to lead us to Christ.

Christ is the only one who ever kept the law

It was given to expose our sin. not to tell us how to live.

Sadly we have to many who are like the jews..

1 Timothy 1:7

desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread, but can you explain to me what the Mosaic Law is? I do believe that when a person gets saved, that God gives them His Holy Spirit, not only as a seal over us that we belong to Him, but also to enable us to live as He wants us to, and cause us to obey Him.

I'm wondering what laws you're thinking that we Christians should follow that are part of the Mosaic Law that we should obey?

I personally don't obey the ceremonial laws of the Jews because I'm not under that covenant.

But the two that Jesus stated in Matthew, encompasses the 10 commandments:


Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So is that what you mean by the Mosaic Law?


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Do you think you are talking to me or are you talking to someone that you think is me? Or does it matter as long as you sound like you know what you're saying even if you don't.
Let me know if you ever become successful in finding life.

I think that I am talking with you. If you think that I don't know what I'm saying, then I welcome you to explain why you think that is the case. The Bible repeatedly states that the way to find life is by obeying God's commandments, which is what I have been promoting.

You're talking to your imagination, and I think it's silly to continue playing along, because you seem to be serious about it.

Why do you think that I am talking to my imagination?

not consider ourselves free to do what God has revealed through His law to be sin.

[Rom 3:20 KJV] 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
διότι ἐξ ἔργων νόμου οὐ δικαιωθήσεται πᾶσα σὰρξ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ διὰ γὰρ νόμου ἐπίγνωσις ἁμαρτίας

How as out the works of the command not any flesh afore him will be justifying, since of the command the notice the wrong.

I wonder if the works of the law means something other than obeying the law. It sounds like enforcement of the law.

Who do you imagine is doing this?

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that the Mosaic Law has expired is the position that we are now free to do what God has revealed through the Mosaic Law to be sin.

as you imagine it

Then perhaps I have misunderstood your position, but there is no reason to act like I'm not speaking with you. What do you mean by speaking about the Mosaic Law expiring if not that we are no longer obligated to obey it?

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to being workers of lawlessness.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God's word says that His law is not too difficult to keep and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so that is the word of faith that you deny. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so you are also denying that anyone has ever loved God and that his commandments are not burdensome. Furthermore, you're also denying the many verses that speak about countless people who kept God's law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

It is impossible to only teach what is unrighteous without also teaching what is righteous by contrast.

Jesus, his disciples, and every Christians between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles were all Torah observant Jews. Moreover, most of the books of the Bible were written by and/or to Jews. Paul never stopped identify as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, so we are told to be imitators of a Jew.

In 1 Timothy 1:3-8, it is not speaking against teaching the law, but against following those who are teaching it improperly, especially because verse 8 contrasts that with saying that the law is good if it is used properly.

lol. Gods people do nto go back to lawlessness. They have truly repented and would never go back
I've seen many people argue that the law leads us to Christ, so we no longer need to follow it once it has done that, so I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you, but if that was not your point, then how do you understand what it means for the law to bring us to Christ?

No, while only Jesus kept the law perfectly, he is far from the only one who kept it, such as in the examples that I cited of people who were counted as having kept God's law even though they did not have perfect obedience to it. For example, someone might not have perfect obedience to the command to honor their parents, but that does not mean that they have never kept that command.

Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required perfect obedience. The fact that we can repent after we have not had perfect obedience and still be saved again demonstrates that God's law does not require perfect obedience. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they need to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them for trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey God's law more consistently, which again demonstrates that they did not need to have perfect obedience.

The greatest two commandants are found in Deuteronomy 6:4-7 and Leviticus 19:18, so you are admitting that God's law does teach us how to rightly live. Moreover, loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22. Furthermore, if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, for example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth. All of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with the Mosaic Law, which is why the. Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

[quotePaul said the law was our tutor. To bring us to christ. But after the tutor has completed its job, we are no longer in need of a tutor.

He law can not help you. If your a child of God and truly saved it did what it was supposed to do

Now learn to obey the law of Christ, the law of love

yes. You proved my point

Stop teaching it improperly. Because you do not understand it.

The law is great when used properly. To lead people to christ.

Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they completed their job would be missing the whole point of a tutor and would need to go back for a remedial education. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not children of God, and in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 22:36-40, Christ summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is the Law of Love.

Teaching people to repent and obey the Mosaic Law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel is not teaching it improperly, but just the opposite. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the Mosaic Law does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to living lawlessly.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but not on His instructions, and to deny that God's instructions are of faith is to deny the faithfulness/trustworthiness of God.

The Mosaic Law consists of the laws that God gave to Israel through Moses as a mediator, which has 613 laws, ten of which are the Ten Commandments. However, even when the law was first given through Moses, there was not a single person who was required to keep all of them, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. For example, Israelites who were not priests were not permitted to follow the laws that were given only to the Levities, which make up a large portion of the 613 laws. So understanding which laws we should be obeying is a matter of careful study and the leading of the Spirit.


My first problem with that statement is that it is not defined by the Bible. The Bible never gives a list of which are part of the category of ceremonial law and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they consider to be ceremonial, then they would end a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list of laws that they just created. In other words, even if the authors of the Bible had spoke against obeying ceremonial laws, then would be misunderstanding them without being able to establish that the list of laws that we have in mind is identical to the list that they had in mind. For example, I've spoken with a number of people who consider everything but the Ten Commandments to be ceremonial laws while others disagree about whether or not laws like those in regard to marriage or the command to keep the Sabbath holy are ceremonial law. The only reason why it matters whether or not a law is ceremonial is because some people have arbitrarily decided that if they personally consider a law to be ceremonial, then that gives them the freedom not to follow what Christ taught his followers to follow.

My second problem with that statement is that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).


If you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey the rest of the Mosaic Law that hangs on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit things like adultery, theft, murder, and idolatry, but we also won't commit kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.