Salvation is a Free Gift.
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there is a vast amount of posts and threads about Calvinsim and all that stuff if anyone does a search of the forums. Here is an interesting post.....from 2020 no less....
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .
But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .
And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .
3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.
4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.
5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
How can we even explain John 6:44 without the verse following it. Jesus is clear when he says in John 6:45 that “it is written in the Prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard and has learned of the father comes unto him." In other words, it is written, everyone shall be taught of God but it is only those who have heard and learned of God will the father draw to him. This places a personal responsibility on man to seek, learn and know God and acknowledge Him as God in order to be called or drawn.
For us to know God, we must be acquainted with His word. And to be acquainted with His word, we must first hear His word. Romans 10: 14 - 15, 17 says, "how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they are sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things. So then, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". When the Word is heard, faith is invigorated in the life of the person who hears the word. The bible says the just shall live by faith. And Jesus tells us no one comes to the Father except by me ---- because he is the Word of God {in person} and we cannot say we know God without first knowing his Word, neither can we say we abide in God without abiding in his Word.
The question of Irresistible grace is sweet to the ears, but, we must answer the question --- which comes first -- Faith or the gift of the holy Spirit? If faith then, the explanation of irresistible grace is flawed. I am yet to see in the scripture where the holy Spirit is received without first hearing the word
Is it every man that hears the Word that believes. No, as Jesus explained in the parable of the Sower.
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .
But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .
And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .
3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.
4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.
5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
How can we even explain John 6:44 without the verse following it. Jesus is clear when he says in John 6:45 that “it is written in the Prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard and has learned of the father comes unto him." In other words, it is written, everyone shall be taught of God but it is only those who have heard and learned of God will the father draw to him. This places a personal responsibility on man to seek, learn and know God and acknowledge Him as God in order to be called or drawn.
For us to know God, we must be acquainted with His word. And to be acquainted with His word, we must first hear His word. Romans 10: 14 - 15, 17 says, "how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they are sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things. So then, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". When the Word is heard, faith is invigorated in the life of the person who hears the word. The bible says the just shall live by faith. And Jesus tells us no one comes to the Father except by me ---- because he is the Word of God {in person} and we cannot say we know God without first knowing his Word, neither can we say we abide in God without abiding in his Word.
The question of Irresistible grace is sweet to the ears, but, we must answer the question --- which comes first -- Faith or the gift of the holy Spirit? If faith then, the explanation of irresistible grace is flawed. I am yet to see in the scripture where the holy Spirit is received without first hearing the word
Is it every man that hears the Word that believes. No, as Jesus explained in the parable of the Sower.
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and here is another post from 2021....
Who cares what Calvinism says? Why are you reading Calvinist doctrine? But for the question of total depravity, I don't know that God ever used those words, but he certainly said something about it.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
and
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I wouldn't build a doctrine of total depravity on the above. Then how do you reconcile the following verse?
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Total depravity means you wouldn't even love your children. Perhaps that is a clue, that we are not totally depraved. And just for a final punch, from the beginning, God tells us we are made in his image. That alone should tell us that perhaps a doctrine of total depravity may not be correct.
He has a point
Who cares what Calvinism says? Why are you reading Calvinist doctrine? But for the question of total depravity, I don't know that God ever used those words, but he certainly said something about it.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
and
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I wouldn't build a doctrine of total depravity on the above. Then how do you reconcile the following verse?
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Total depravity means you wouldn't even love your children. Perhaps that is a clue, that we are not totally depraved. And just for a final punch, from the beginning, God tells us we are made in his image. That alone should tell us that perhaps a doctrine of total depravity may not be correct.
He has a point
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so someone creates an op about salvation and the fact it is a free gift....meaning we do not and cannot earn it, and one person decides he needs to obscure that fact with Calvinism which is an ism and not a way to accept that free gift
why don't these folks who take over the threads of others start their own thread?
and you can talk about what you believe without destroying a thread you did not start and obviously object to its very exsistance
in fact, maybe this forum could use a thread entitled 'All Calvinism all the Time'
then, you elect vs non-elect folk could play in there all day and congratulate each other on your irresistable 'salvation'
why don't these folks who take over the threads of others start their own thread?
and you can talk about what you believe without destroying a thread you did not start and obviously object to its very exsistance
in fact, maybe this forum could use a thread entitled 'All Calvinism all the Time'
then, you elect vs non-elect folk could play in there all day and congratulate each other on your irresistable 'salvation'
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“In that case, it wouldn't be a free gift. Anything that someone must do to obtain it, makes it theirs only by their doing, and therefore, not a free gift. “
who gave the gift ? And what did he say to those he was offering it to ? If I put ten million on your bank account nd tell you you need to go to the bank and sign your name and then you can draw it from your account …..is it no longer a gift I gave you ? Will you tell everyone “ this guy put ten million in my bank but he expects me to go to the bank and sign this form and actually draw it from my account so it’s not a Goft anymore I have to do works to get it ?
who gave the gift ? And what did he say to those he was offering it to ? If I put ten million on your bank account nd tell you you need to go to the bank and sign your name and then you can draw it from your account …..is it no longer a gift I gave you ? Will you tell everyone “ this guy put ten million in my bank but he expects me to go to the bank and sign this form and actually draw it from my account so it’s not a Goft anymore I have to do works to get it ?
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Amen the gift comes according the the givers words
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:35-38 KJV
We start seeing what the gift is and what it looks and sounds like just by listening to the words of the one who gave it we often create our own versions of salvation but he laid one out perfectly and invites our belief in him
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:35-38 KJV
We start seeing what the gift is and what it looks and sounds like just by listening to the words of the one who gave it we often create our own versions of salvation but he laid one out perfectly and invites our belief in him
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You shouldn't use man's standards for assessing/comparing God's gifts - totally inappropriate.
As I said previously, the gift is spiritual life from spiritual death. A spiritually dead person, just as a
physically dead person, cannot give to themselves spiritual life, neither are they able to comprehend anything at all - they are completely at the mercy of God in order for them to be MADE alive, along with being given a renewed mind. Until and unless that happens, they remain dead.
As I said previously, the gift is spiritual life from spiritual death. A spiritually dead person, just as a
physically dead person, cannot give to themselves spiritual life, neither are they able to comprehend anything at all - they are completely at the mercy of God in order for them to be MADE alive, along with being given a renewed mind. Until and unless that happens, they remain dead.
It’s because they were already filled with Moses words they had no room for his
remember who he’s talking to and what was said in the Old Testament about them ?
“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Matthew 13:14-15 KJV
Paul quotes the same here after speaking to them first
“And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.”
Acts 28:24-28 KJV
there’s a reason he said that to them particularly
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:25 KJV
remember who he’s talking to and what was said in the Old Testament about them ?
“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Matthew 13:14-15 KJV
Paul quotes the same here after speaking to them first
“And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.”
Acts 28:24-28 KJV
there’s a reason he said that to them particularly
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:25 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
John 5:24 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
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You receive the Holy Spirit after you believe not before you believe.
Acts 19:2
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him,
“On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.”
You can believe in Jesus though you are not yet spiritually alive.
Acts 19:2
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him,
“On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.”
You can believe in Jesus though you are not yet spiritually alive.
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Peter tells us in Acts 5 the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord, which is Jesus.
I just wanted to see if Roger caught it and actually no one did.
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit
4 .......You have not lied to man but to God.
9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together (Ananias and Sapphira) to test the Spirit of the Lord?
I just wanted to see if Roger caught it and actually no one did.
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit
4 .......You have not lied to man but to God.
9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together (Ananias and Sapphira) to test the Spirit of the Lord?