The Myth of Original Sin?

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Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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#41
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Gen 2:15-17 . .The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden
of Eden, to till it and tend it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying:
Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the tree of
knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day you eat of
it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite among critics because the man didn't drop dead
the very day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to
live outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his
son Seth (Gen 5:4). So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent
discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to
resonate in the man's thinking; it had to be related to death as he
understood death in his own day rather than death as modern Sunday
school classes construe it in their day. In other words: the man's concept of
death was primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather than idiomatic,
allegorical, spiritual, metaphorical, and/or philosophical.

As far as can be known from scripture, mankind is the only specie that God
created in His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The
animal kingdom was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around the man by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that
it wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for the man seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.

So I think we can be reasonably confident that the man was up to speed on
at least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he went
ahead and tasted the forbidden fruit that his body would lose its perpetual
youth and end up drying in the sun like road kill; so to speak.

In other words; had the man not eaten of the forbidden tree, he would've
remained in perfect health but the very day that he tasted its fruit, his body
became infected with mortality, i.e. he lost perpetual youth and began to
age; a condition easily remedied by the tree of life but alas, the man was
denied access to it.

As we all know: the aging process is a lingering, walking death rather than
sudden death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless-- it feels neither pain
nor pity, nor remorse nor fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be
bargained with, and it absolutely will not stop-- ever! --until our body is so
broken down that it cannot continue.

"A voice said: Shout! I asked: What should I shout? Shout that people are
like the grass that dies away. Their beauty fades as quickly as the beauty of
flowers in a field. The grass withers, and the flowers fade beneath the breath
of The Lord. And so it is with people." (Isa 40:6-8)
_
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#42
I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around the man by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that
it wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for the man seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.
How long do you think Adam lived in order to be "up to speed" on what death was? That would mean
Adam and Eve were not told of either tree for that length of time, either. It really dos not add up.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#43
Why isn't it speaking about the 1st death?

Because all mortals are designed to die the first death. It isn't a punishment and isn't sin related.

1Co 15:35 Some of you have asked, "How will the dead be raised to life? What kind of bodies will they have?"
1Co 15:36 Don't be foolish. A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.
1Co 15:37 Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up.
1Co 15:38 This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.
1Co 15:39 People, animals, birds, and fish are each made of flesh, but none of them are alike.
1Co 15:40 Everything in the heavens has a body, and so does everything on earth. But each one is very different from all the others.
1Co 15:41 The sun isn't like the moon, the moon isn't like the stars, and each star is different.
1Co 15:42 That's how it will be when our bodies are raised to life. These bodies will die, but the bodies that are raised will live forever.
1Co 15:43 These ugly and weak bodies will become beautiful and strong.

See, death is God's way to bring us into a new life. It's designed that way. Death was always part of the plan!

Christ also spoke of this:

Joh 12:24 I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat.
Joh 12:25 If you love your life, you will lose it. If you give it up in this world, you will be given eternal life.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#44
Because all mortals are designed to die the first death. It isn't a punishment and isn't sin related.

1Co 15:35 Some of you have asked, "How will the dead be raised to life? What kind of bodies will they have?"
1Co 15:36 Don't be foolish. A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.
1Co 15:37 Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up.
1Co 15:38 This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.
1Co 15:39 People, animals, birds, and fish are each made of flesh, but none of them are alike.
1Co 15:40 Everything in the heavens has a body, and so does everything on earth. But each one is very different from all the others.
1Co 15:41 The sun isn't like the moon, the moon isn't like the stars, and each star is different.
1Co 15:42 That's how it will be when our bodies are raised to life. These bodies will die, but the bodies that are raised will live forever.
1Co 15:43 These ugly and weak bodies will become beautiful and strong.

See, death is God's way to bring us into a new life. It's designed that way. Death was always part of the plan!

Christ also spoke of this:

Joh 12:24 I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat.
Joh 12:25 If you love your life, you will lose it. If you give it up in this world, you will be given eternal life.
Doesn't sin cause death?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#45
Doesn't sin cause death?

Not the first death. Mortality causes that whether you sin or not. Animals die but don't sin, babies, mentally challenged etc.

Sin causes spiritual death and if unforgiven will result in the second death.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Jan 17, 2023
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#46
Yes. Because it's supported in scripture. Am I going to give a more detailed answer than that? No. There are lots of resources out there defending paedobaptism. I see no reason to repeat them here.
I'd appreciate if you'd give at least one of your own reasons. I don't see where it is supported in Scripture. Was there an instance of baby baptism in the Bible, I don't recall one.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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#47
I’m not sure I’ve read about thier spiritual death but it sounds legitimate what you’re saying. But then why do men’s bodies die and tbier spirits are held for judgement in sleep ?

i think we need our spirit saved because we are born under condemnation because of what Adam did to us his transgression is unique . In that adam didn’t need to be saved he was created in perfect relationship with God already made In His image and likeness God had put Adam into Eden and brought animals to him to see what Adam would name them they had no shame

after they ate the fruit everything changes and God curses them and throws them out of Eden where he had placed them

few verses later we see this

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a that’s not sayong adam sinned and now everyone is guilty for adams sin . It’s saying what Adam did caused us to become sinners by our nature when he took of the knowledge of good and evil that transgression caused this in all mankind

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. ( don’t partake of the knowledge of good and evil you’ll die for sure )

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law of sin is there because of what Adam did rejecting Gods commandment and following satans lies consuming the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in direct conflict with each other that affected mankind made us ourselves a conflict between good and evil spirit and flesh

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭

God didn’t create Adam like that struggling between good and evil his spirit and his flesh . when they ate the knowledge of good and evil it corrupted them and caused us to be like that

a Adams transgression cause his offspring to become sinners themselves because his transgression affected mankind nature and minds and hearts leading here just ten generations later

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can already see God didn’t create wicked sinners meant to corrupt everything with thier evil
Imaginations , but rather when Adam transgressed it introduced the knowledge of evil into mankind’s heart and mind and the rest was history man was never made to possess the knowledge of evil but made to hear what God said believe him and walk by just that not considering the contrary things

sinner isn’t just someone who commuted a sin once it’s who we humans are inside we have corruption in us in our flesh
So what's your point? It's all physical? I don't exactly understand what you're correcting me on here with all these words. I'm not even saying I disagree with you or your point, I honestly got lost and missed it I think, but what about our spiritual disconnection and death during the fall do you disagree with? Is it the fact that this was Jesus purpose and that when we are reborn we are spiritually resurrected and reconciled to our Creator as we were created to be that you disagree with? Maybe the concept that it's not just a physical sin that we are born with, seeing as how we are all born into sin?

As was being touched on in this discussion, babies are obviously not coming out sinning, yet they are born disconnected. Does the spiritual death not fit with every bit of His word? Because I can't lie, the angle I take when talking about this is the one we are most ignorant to by nature. When I was born again this was the biggest blind spot, logically, but the whole truth of what His Spirit was and the lack of a spirit in me. I went to church years thinking I was saved and thinking the Spirit was something that came and went, that was the chills you get when hearing something nostalgic, I couldn't have possibly known anything about my spirit being alive, how could we when we've never had one alive.

This was what died that day they ate and fell, and no, it doesn't say that specifically in the text the way I'm saying it, but taking in the His word as whole, and knowing the truth of God having been born again, do you disagree with this? Because as I typed this out I realized that having missed your point and/or argument I may have been mistaken. Maybe you weren't trying to correct or disagree at all and if that's the case then all but this sentence seems silly now.

Either way I appreciate the conversation and if you do disagree I'd love to hear a more summed up version of what you disagree with and where you think it's wrong. If you weren't and just adding to what I said, then have a great day and praise Jesus.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#48
So what's your point? It's all physical? I don't exactly understand what you're correcting me on here with all these words. I'm not even saying I disagree with you or your point, I honestly got lost and missed it I think, but what about our spiritual disconnection and death during the fall do you disagree with? Is it the fact that this was Jesus purpose and that when we are reborn we are spiritually resurrected and reconciled to our Creator as we were created to be that you disagree with? Maybe the concept that it's not just a physical sin that we are born with, seeing as how we are all born into sin?

As was being touched on in this discussion, babies are obviously not coming out sinning, yet they are born disconnected. Does the spiritual death not fit with every bit of His word? Because I can't lie, the angle I take when talking about this is the one we are most ignorant to by nature. When I was born again this was the biggest blind spot, logically, but the whole truth of what His Spirit was and the lack of a spirit in me. I went to church years thinking I was saved and thinking the Spirit was something that came and went, that was the chills you get when hearing something nostalgic, I couldn't have possibly known anything about my spirit being alive, how could we when we've never had one alive.

This was what died that day they ate and fell, and no, it doesn't say that specifically in the text the way I'm saying it, but taking in the His word as whole, and knowing the truth of God having been born again, do you disagree with this? Because as I typed this out I realized that having missed your point and/or argument I may have been mistaken. Maybe you weren't trying to correct or disagree at all and if that's the case then all but this sentence seems silly now.

Either way I appreciate the conversation and if you do disagree I'd love to hear a more summed up version of what you disagree with and where you think it's wrong. If you weren't and just adding to what I said, then have a great day and praise Jesus.
Yeah no I wasn’t really disagreeing, I was saying I hadn’t read about that but it sounded legitimate to me …..then had just asked what you thought about why man’s body dies , but thier spirit goes into the afterlife for instance

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Isnt it that thier flesh body died and thier spirit is in the next realm that comes after the spiritual realm ? The man in hell doesn’t seem to be dead but he did die and was buried

It seems as if his flesh body has died but his spirit is still alive just in a different realm of creation

So really I suppose I’m posing a question to you regarding your position there. To be honest I had never considered what your saying before so I’m not disagreeing or anything just digging into it a bit testing it’s integrity
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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#49
I do not believe that Adam was created saved... he was of the natural world and needed to eat of the tree of life in order to attain to life ever after, and he did not do that.
So before he sinned he had earned death? That doesn't make much sense to me, even though I do understand and see logic in what you're saying too. However I disagree with you if you think Adam would have died if he would have stayed obedient as Jesus was. I don't agree with that at all. All this said it ultimately a hypothetical and was not the purpose God created him for, so like I said, in that sense I agree with you. Adam never ate the fruit from the tree of life, but can't agree with God creating man and saying it was "good" and him not being "created saved". He was created just like Jesus was when He stepped into the world. Sin broke it, so "fixed" and because when Adam was created there was nothing to be saved from, you believe in that state never sinning, Adam would have tasted death? If so why?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#50
Not the first death. Mortality causes that whether you sin or not. Animals die but don't sin, babies, mentally challenged etc.

Sin causes spiritual death and if unforgiven will result in the second death.
So death was built into creation?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
So death was built into creation?
No, death was NOT built into creation, but the consequence of disobedience to God's commandments is death -- separation from God. Because of Adam's disobedience, death came upon Adam and all mankind (because all are descended from Adam and Eve). But notice that Eve is not the one held responsible, even though she herself and disobedient first, and then caused Adam to sin.

At the same time, since God already knew what would happen, so in His great grace, and love, and mercy He provide His only begotten Son as the "Lamb of God" before the foundation of the world. Christ died as the Lamb of God (our Passover Lamb) on Nisan 14 (the day of the Passover) in AD 30, and fulfilled the need for His blood to be shed for the remission of sins and the cleansing of souls. And all human beings may be saved from the Second Death by (a) repentance toward God and (b) faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Hence the absolute need for the preaching of the true Gospel.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#52
No, death was NOT built into creation, but the consequence of disobedience to God's commandments is death -- separation from God. Because of Adam's disobedience, death came upon Adam and all mankind (because all are descended from Adam and Eve). But notice that Eve is not the one held responsible, even though she herself and disobedient first, and then caused Adam to sin.

At the same time, since God already knew what would happen, so in His great grace, and love, and mercy He provide His only begotten Son as the "Lamb of God" before the foundation of the world. Christ died as the Lamb of God (our Passover Lamb) on Nisan 14 (the day of the Passover) in AD 30, and fulfilled the need for His blood to be shed for the remission of sins and the cleansing of souls. And all human beings may be saved from the Second Death by (a) repentance toward God and (b) faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Hence the absolute need for the preaching of the true Gospel.
I agree. But this isn't what the other poster is saying.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#53
So before he sinned he had earned death?

I disagree with you if you think Adam would have died if he would have stayed obedient as Jesus was.

when Adam was created there was nothing to be saved from, you believe
in that state never sinning, Adam would have tasted death? If so why?
Hello Jim. I said nothing that even hints at me believing any of the things you have erroneously assumed I believe.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#54
So death was built into creation?
“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:8-9, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15‬ ‭K

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( life )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( death )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

from adam to the end there is an inherant choice for man between life and good or death and evil both are present always for mankind until the new comes when good will rule
 

NightTwister

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Jul 5, 2023
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#55
I'd appreciate if you'd give at least one of your own reasons. I don't see where it is supported in Scripture. Was there an instance of baby baptism in the Bible, I don't recall one.
There are five cases of household baptism recorded in the New Testament.

1. Cornelius' Household (Acts 10)
2. Lydia's Household (Acts 16)
3. The Philippian Jailer's Household (Acts 16)
4. Crispus’ Household (Acts 18)
5. Stephanas’ Household (1 Corinthians 1)
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Jan 17, 2023
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#56
There are five cases of household baptism recorded in the New Testament.

1. Cornelius' Household (Acts 10)
2. Lydia's Household (Acts 16)
3. The Philippian Jailer's Household (Acts 16)
4. Crispus’ Household (Acts 18)
5. Stephanas’ Household (1 Corinthians 1)

Let me look deeper into those and see if babies could have been involved. Thanks you all for keeping the discussion going. I need to catch up but my little great nephew, who just turned 3 months, kind of takes priority. But I will try to catch up.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#57
Let me look deeper into those and see if babies could have been involved. Thanks you all for keeping the discussion going. I need to catch up but my little great nephew, who just turned 3 months, kind of takes priority. But I will try to catch up.

I hope and pray your 3-month nephew is doing well along with his Dad and Mom! :D


🍤
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#59
Yes. Even this world will be destroyed so a new one can exist :)
So death came before sin, even though it says death came by sin?
Was there a new earth after the flood?
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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#60
I hope and pray your 3-month nephew is doing well along with his Dad and Mom! :D


🍤

Thank you, he is doing very well, as are his parents. A lot of growing to do for them and for him. We just continue to pray, help where we can without trying to be too pushy. But little Jasper is quite adorable. lol