The Return of Jews to Israel

[PeteWaldo]

So...you believe God has 2 different covenants going with mankind?
Two different ways to be in covenant with Him, one through the Law and one through the Lord Jesus?

I believe the old covent "waxeth away" as the Gospel indicates. But I also believe that God blinded some Jews, just as scripture indicates. For me to believe they were blinded so they could be condemned would be for me to believe that God did so in order for them to perish. A sentiment expressed by some historically:

Pope Clement VIII: “The Bible itself says that the Jews are an accursed people.”

Pope Innocent III: “The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.” (To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris)

That's what is called punitive, or hard, supersessionism. So how do you reconcile the following verses:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Remember that was penned decades after the cross.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

 

[loveme1]

How are they grafted back in?

 

[loveme1]

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[SUP]8 [/SUP](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

If they believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe the old covent "waxeth away" as the Gospel indicates. But I also believe that God blinded some Jews, just as scripture indicates. For me to believe they were blinded so they could be condemned would be for me to believe that God did so in order for them to perish. A sentiment expressed by some historically:

Pope Clement VIII: “The Bible itself says that the Jews are an accursed people.”

Pope Innocent III: “The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.” (To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris)

That's what is called punitive, or hard, supersessionism. So how do you reconcile the following verses:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Remember that was penned decades after the cross.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

1. God blinds people in unbelief as he hardens their heart (strengthens their unbelief)
2. Those we are grafted in among are the remnant/ jews who has not blinded themselves in unbelief, but who have come to the saving grace of Christ (there are MANY jews who believe in Christ and have recieved his gift.

3. God condemns those to hell who personally chose to reject Christ. He does not force anyone to not believe.. And he will nto save anyone who rejects his son. period!

 

[doulos]

So...you believe God has 2 different covenants going with mankind?
Two different ways to be in covenant with Him, one through the Law and one through the Lord Jesus?

Those under the Old Covenant were not saved by the law. They were saved by faith in Christ and were born again just as you and I are.
1Co 10:1- 4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

If the Old Testament Scriptures could lead Old Testament saints to come to know Christ then why couldn't the Jew that has been given the spirit of slumber until the fulness of the gentiles comes in be saved by coming to know Christ that way to? Wasn't God's covenant with the Jews everalsting? How can it be everlasting if God does not keep some of the Jews under it until His return? Could Romans4:15 hold the key? Will God count the Jews guilty for not seeing something He does not allow them to see?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Can you show Scripturally how one can be elect and still be an enemy of the gospel?

 

[PeteWaldo]

So they are not a people. and we should love on a bunch of jews who deny their messiah, and hate on some gentiles who need God just as bad as they do. A name is just a name. THEY ALL NEED GOD.

Christians are commanded to love everybody. That's why I am engaged in full time ministry to the 1/4 of mankind that is antichrist as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad. Who believe it to be less of a sin to commit cold-blooded mass murder than to pray in Jesus' name.

Who is talking about them? They are not what we are talking about. we are talking about jews today, who still reject Christ!~

So you feel confident in proclaiming God's judgment on Jews who have faith in YHWH, and serve Him as He revealed Himself to them, through our Old Testament scriptures?

 

[loveme1]

Read line upon line.

Hebrews 8

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you feel confident in proclaiming God's judgment on Jews who have faith in YHWH, and serve Him as He revealed Himself to them, through our Old Testament scriptures?

Gal 1 means nothing? Hebrews means nothing? and many more passages of scripture means nothing? (even david realised the law was not what saved him)

The old covenant never saved anyone. No one was ever saved by the old covenant, the jews thought they were, this is why they rejected and killed Christ.

jews today who still try to follow law. and not Grace have rejected christ just like the pharisees do.

I do not condemn them, their own law does.

 

[PeteWaldo]

1. God blinds people in unbelief as he hardens their heart (strengthens their unbelief)

That almost reads like a quote from the passage:

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

2. Those we are grafted in among are the remnant/ jews who has not blinded themselves in unbelief, but who have come to the saving grace of Christ (there are MANY jews who believe in Christ and have recieved his gift.

Certainly many have, and continue to, to this day.

3. God condemns those to hell who personally chose to reject Christ. He does not force anyone to not believe.. And he will nto save anyone who rejects his son. period!

You didn't really answer the question. Are comfortable proclaiming God's judgment on Jews who have faith in YHWH, and worship Him as He revealed Himself to them, through our Old Testament scriptures?

 

[doulos]

Romans 11



If they believe.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
In another thread I asked you how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect. You never did provide an answer instead you danced all around the question with answers like "if they believe". Aren't the elect believers? So what is it that an enemy of the gospel bleieves that makes them elect? Can you provide a Scripturally sound explanation of how the elect in Romans11:28 can be an enemy of the gospel?

 

[doulos]

How are they grafted back in?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Do the elect need to be grafted back in? If they are elect aren't they already in the good olive tree?

 

[doulos]

Are you serious?

Faithful Jews?

Have you read the Bible?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Could it be that the enemies of the Gospel that are elect are faithful under the only Scriptures they are allowed to see (the Old Testament)? How can the Old Covenant be an everlasting covenant if there are not some Jews still under it?

 

[PeteWaldo]

Gal 1 means nothing? Hebrews means nothing? and many more passages of scripture means nothing? (even david realised the law was not what saved him) .

As I said many Jews have come to Christ, and continue to, to this day.

So when do you suppose the "fulness of the Gentiles" " full number of Gentiles comes to Christ" or "full number of the nations" "fulness of the nations" "be come in"?

 

[PeteWaldo]

The old covenant never saved anyone. No one was ever saved by the old covenant, the jews thought they were, this is why they rejected and killed Christ.

So then you believe it was the Jews that killed Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You didn't really answer the question. Are comfortable proclaiming God's judgment on Jews who have faith in YHWH, and worship Him as He revealed Himself to them, through our Old Testament scriptures?

Actually I did. The OT Scriptures lead to the redeemer.. If onyone did not think they needed a redeemer, and just took the law out of context., they are not saved., today, or then.

God proclaims judgment on them. not me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As I said many Jews have come to Christ, and continue to, to this day.

So when do you suppose the "fulness of the Gentiles" " full number of Gentiles comes to Christ" or "full number of the nations" "fulness of the nations" "be come in"?

fullness of the gentiles will be when the final gentile kingdom (rome) and its leader (the beast) is destroyed.

it is not the full numbers of gentiles who come to Christ. gentiles have been saved since before the Isreal nation. During the Isreal nation. and will be saved LONG after All Isreal is saved, and return to their kingdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then you believe it was the Jews that killed Christ?

actually I believe I did.. But the jews physically did when they took barabus over Christ. having sealed their fate unless they repented and came to him. (ie Saul)

 

[PeteWaldo]

Actually I did.

Perhaps you should have finished the passage, along with everybody else, throughout several threads who quite casually do the same.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The OT Scriptures lead to the redeemer.. If onyone did not think they needed a redeemer, and just took the law out of context., they are not saved., today, or then.

God proclaims judgment on them. not me.

So you know God's judgments and ways?

 

[PeteWaldo]

For those that didn't read the OP through, it closed with:

I would appreciate it if members began their replies as to whether you believe the restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, as millions believe was prophesied - and as Christians anticipated long before that restoration began to take place - or whether you believe it is of Satan, and why, or offer another alternative.

Repeated failure of posters to address this in several other threads is why I started this topic.

 

[Abiding]

As I said many Jews have come to Christ, and continue to, to this day.

So when do you suppose the "fulness of the Gentiles" " full number of Gentiles comes to Christ" or "full number of the nations" "fulness of the nations" "be come in"?

same old same old....i see you added the word number...when the word doesnt mean number...thats why we have division
over this.