Educational program for our church

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beaglehound

Guest
#21
#21
GreekEagle343 said:
Correct. I copyrighted the program so that I would have the right to share it with others for future ministry if God in His grace allows. I gave the church permission to use the curriculum, but not to sell it. This isn't what they wanted. They wanted me to give them the original word documents so that they could "cut and paste" and make a new program out of what I wrote. Ultimately I wasn't willing to do that because I couldn't trust them to present the Biblical text faithfully.

More than anything, I would like to see my efforts bear kingdom fruit, rather than hundreds of hours of research, design, study, and writing go to waste. I wrote more material and did more research and spent more hours writing this one project than in all of my Master of Divinity seminary classes combined. It hurts that all my efforts were thrown away as worthless.

To be honest, I came to this church wanting to serve Christ with my whole life. It really hurts to be tossed aside like that. For two years afterward I considered leaving the organized church permanently (not my faith in Christ, this isn't His fault at all). Ultimately, however, if I am to serve Christ I need to do so in the context of Christian community.
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I understand everything you have said and agree. You are very young and getting punched in the gut like this is very hard to take.
If you can't trust those in the church, especially church leadership who can you trust?
It is a difficult pill to swallow. I've been around the block a few times and have left a few churches because of what all was going on behind the scenes.
I've also attended some very faithful churches and was able to trust the leadership.
You made the right choice finding another church though discouraged as you must have felt.
Chalk it up as one of life's hard knocks. You have learned an important lesson and are a better man for it. You stuck to it and found another church family.

We allow ourselves to be vulnerable in church. Why not? It is God's house. Doing so can get us burned as was your situation but we continue to fight the good fight. Satan loves to divide and separate those who love Christ. Had you chosen to get out of organized religion you would have been playing right into his hands. You didn't bite!

A question for you....
How is it the deaconess would have so much power to get everyone on her side regarding your program. Did others support you?
 
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GreekEagle343

New member
#22
Oct 3, 2023
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#22
@beaglehound

First, let me just say I love the picture of your beagle. That is very cute, and you make me want to buy a puppy.

Second, the deaconess stated that she had tried the first of 9 lessons in her small group as a leader, and felt that it was not working for her. The Deaconess was and is a very powerful and influential person at the church. She strongly holds a pentecostal/charismatic view that sees any form of formal education and biblical scholarship as "religious" (a very bad thing in her eyes, defining religion as something fake, dead, and empty) and "academic" (something involving formal education, which she doesn't like). This form of anti-intellectual sentiment was a strongly held minority view by a bunch of influential leaders in that particular church.

There were many people who supported my ministry efforts at this particular church, but those who were not on the executive leadership team were largely kept in the dark about this discipleship program, so others who were supportive either didn't know of the issues going on or were unwilling to speak up in support of what I was doing out of fear. (My opinion here, based on personal experience).

Unfortunately, this pentecostal/charismatic perspective was, at least in practice, often more about people being emotional and gregarious rather than actually following the spirit. Please don't get me wrong though, I am firmly a continuationist. Far be it from me to be opposed to the Holy Spirit or anything the Holy Spirit is genuinely doing, either on His own or through the church through the use of spiritual gifts. It is merely that there was a gap between theory and practice in this instance in my view.

For whatever it is worth, and this goes for anyone on CC, my heart's desire is for the curriculum I have written to bear kingdom fruit. With that said, if anyone at all thinks that it may be of kingdom help to them I would gladly email them a digital copy for free to support their ministry.

I am passionate about Christian education, especially biblical/theological education. In the past few years God has laid it on my heart to start a Christian education business creating Christian educational materials for churches and Christian schools. Many of my designs are custom jobs which individuals have requested to support the work of the ministry God is doing. So please, if I can be of service, please don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of kingdom good.
 
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GreekEagle343

New member
#23
Oct 3, 2023
29
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#23
It should also be added that when most people ask for money (in the church or otherwise) in return for their work, they think of what they need/want to buy with said money. In the example of this curriculum, the honorarium I asked for was for me more about value. The money itself in order to buy things to support my ministry was very secondary. To me, at least in this instance, it is far more about a statement of appreciation and value from the people who asked me to put 2 1/2 years of blood, sweat, and tears (literally) into this project and then tossed it aside as though my work (and by extension, me) are utterly worthless. It was (and is) extremely painful to be regarded by a pastor (and one who professes to closely follow Christ and be led by the Spirit, no less) as a second class citizen in God's kingdom at best, and worthless at worst. That, imho, is what the problem is primarily about.


Sorry to vent my emotions, but this issue is still hard to talk about. I hope this explanation helps? All the best, GreekEagle343
 
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beaglehound

Guest
#24
#24
GreekEagle,
I am saddened to hear all that you have been through. Thank goodness you have a loving caring wife to support you through all of this. It must have been hard on her as well.
My advice to you is put as much distance between yourself and that church as possible. It is not a healthy church.
Do not look back.
All things work together to them that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.
You were knocked to ground and stomped on. Just remember what our Lord and still he was spat at, beaten up and ridiculed. In the end he triumphed. So too will you! That is a certainty. Read Philippians 4:8!
One of the hardest things to accept is knowing we have been treated unjustly by those we trusted.
You were betrayed and thrown under the bus.
One had to wonder how the senior pastor is able to sleep at night and preach on a Sunday morning given his conduct.

Do you have a website I can visit?
I wouldn't mind emailing you but I don't want to post my email publicly.

And by the way, I'm curious. How did you know TinyKnight posted about you?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#25
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
13,440
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#25
GreekEagle343 said:
Sorry to vent my emotions, but this issue is still hard to talk about. I hope this explanation helps? All the best, GreekEagle343
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Thanks for stepping up and sharing your side of the story. Too often these situations are shrouded in secrecy such that nobody can learn from them.
 
Billyd

Billyd

Senior Member
#26
May 8, 2014
5,066
1,502
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#26
GreekEagle343 said:
It should also be added that when most people ask for money (in the church or otherwise) in return for their work, they think of what they need/want to buy with said money. In the example of this curriculum, the honorarium I asked for was for me more about value. The money itself in order to buy things to support my ministry was very secondary. To me, at least in this instance, it is far more about a statement of appreciation and value from the people who asked me to put 2 1/2 years of blood, sweat, and tears (literally) into this project and then tossed it aside as though my work (and by extension, me) are utterly worthless. It was (and is) extremely painful to be regarded by a pastor (and one who professes to closely follow Christ and be led by the Spirit, no less) as a second class citizen in God's kingdom at best, and worthless at worst. That, imho, is what the problem is primarily about.


Sorry to vent my emotions, but this issue is still hard to talk about. I hope this explanation helps? All the best, GreekEagle343
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Thank you for posting you feelings about your project.

I believe that you did the best possible thing by separating yourself from the congregation, and finding another place to serve, and I wish you well.

From the heart of a retired elder who has experienced this type of strife splitting a church more than once, it is best that you find the ministry that you can plug into. I promise you that God will provide the place and the resources that you need.

My advice to the church that you left, is to examine the roles of deacons and elders. Unbridled power is not a part of either role.

In addition there seems to be a need for a long period of prayer and fasting on the part of the congregation.

I will keep you and your future ministry, and the church you are leaving in my prayers.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#27
Jul 18, 2017
24,637
13,040
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#27
TinyKnight said:
What Scripture and or wisdom would you recommend for how to handle this situation?
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The term "elder" says it all. It means an OLDER and more mature person in that position, who meets the biblical qualifications.

While this person produced something which was over the top, the compromise position would have been to selectively reduce his draft to 4 or 5 pages and let him know the reason why. It should have been a draft in the first place, but he should not have been made an elder. So your church leadership is at fault all the way through.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#28
Jul 18, 2017
24,637
13,040
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#28
Dino246 said:
The young man was an elder whose job was preaching and teaching.
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And since "young man" is not the same as "elder" everyone is to blame including the young man. A seminary graduate does not make an elder. In fact he should have been the one to tell the leadership that appointing him is unbiblical. Unfortunately most evangelical churches ignore the biblical pattern for just about everything.
 
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GreekEagle343

New member
#29
Oct 3, 2023
29
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#29
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#30
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
13,440
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#30
Nehemiah6 said:
And since "young man" is not the same as "elder" everyone is to blame including the young man. A seminary graduate does not make an elder. In fact he should have been the one to tell the leadership that appointing him is unbiblical. Unfortunately most evangelical churches ignore the biblical pattern for just about everything.
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There is no biblical reason why someone who has received significant education AND who has been functioning well in a leadership position shouldn’t be added of the team of elders.

If you think otherwise, then please provide the biblical passage showing the minimum age for ‘elders’.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#32
Jul 18, 2017
24,637
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#32
Dino246 said:
There is no biblical reason why someone who has received significant education AND who has been functioning well in a leadership position shouldn’t be added of the team of elders.
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The term "elder" itself rules out this position (a very weak one).

The KJV translates Strong's G4245 in the following manner: elder (64x), old man (1x), eldest (1x), elder woman (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. elder, of age,
    1. the elder of two people
    2. advanced in life, an elder, a senior
      1. forefathers
  2. a term of rank or office
    1. among the Jews
      1. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
      2. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
    2. among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
    3. the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
πρεσβύτερος presbýteros, pres-boo'-ter-os; comparative of πρέσβυς présbys (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specially, an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian "presbyter":—elder(-est), old.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G4245:
πρεσβύτερος, πρεσβυτέρα, πρεσβύτερον (comparitive of πρέσβυς) (from Homer down), elder; used:
1. of age;
a. where two persons are spoken of, the elder: ὁ υἱός ὁ πρεσβύτερος (Aelian v. h. 9, 42), Luke 15:25.
b. universally, advanced in life, an elder, a senior: opposed to νεανίσκοι, Acts 2:17; opposed to νεώτερος, 1 Timothy 5:1f (Genesis 18:11f; Wis. 8:10; Sir. 6:34 (33); Sir. 7:14; 2 Macc. 8:30). οἱ πρεσβύτεροι (A. V. the elders), forefathers, Hebrews 11:2; παράδοσις (which see) τῶν πρεσβυτέρων, received from the fathers, Matthew 15:2; Mark 7:3, 5.
 
B

beaglehound

Guest
#38
#38
NightTwister said:
There's your first problem. Deaconesses should only be attending to physical issues, not spiritual ones.
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I have read that deacons/ deaconesses are commissioned to support the elders. If that is true then there are problems with the organization of this particular church
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#39
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
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#39
Nehemiah6 said:
The term "elder" itself rules out this position (a very weak one).

The KJV translates Strong's G4245 in the following manner: elder (64x), old man (1x), eldest (1x), elder woman (1x).
…
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Again, please provide the minimum age for an elder… from Scripture.

I will add this: you have COMPLETELY missed the point of this thread.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#40
Jul 18, 2017
24,637
13,040
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#40
Dino246 said:
I will add this: you have COMPLETELY missed the point of this thread.
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No. This whole mess began when a "kid" was deemed to be an elder.

As to minimum age, it would certain not be in the 20s or 30s. The minimum age for Jewish elders was 30, but their standards do not necessarily apply to Christians, who need both general and spiritual maturity, as well as a Christian life track record for the elder. So possibly 40s and 50s would be more appropriate.
 
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